Interview with Robina Courtin

by Kathleen Gregory

Many of Ordinary Mind readers have not doubt seen the film Chasing Buddha and been impressed and inspired by Robina Courtin and the work she is doing with the Liberation Prison Project. Robina is a fully-ordained nun within the Gelugpa tradition. While Robina was visiting from America for a school reunion in Melbourne recently, I had the good fortune to catch up with her.

Kathleen Gregory: Robina, I would like to start by asking you about your life story. Where were you born and can you say something about your early life?

Robina Courtin: I was born in Melbourne, December 20th 1944, the Year of the Monkey; a Sagittarian and one of seven children. I was educated at Sacre Couer, a Catholic Convent in Glen Iris. I vividly remember was that I always had a strong connection with spiritual things. Since I was very little, I wanted to be a priest. When I went go to Mass, it was clear to me that that was my job. I remember telling my mother and she laughed and explained why I could not - because I was a girl. I must have been quite young because I did not understand at all. Anyway, I figured, I would be a nun instead.

I remember when I was about twelve, I went down on my bended knees and begged my mother to let me be a nun like St Therese of Lisieux - and she would not let me. I boarded for my last two years and I loved it very much. I think it was the beginning of my monastic karma - I had my own space, I could go to Mass every morning and it was the first time I developed my own intellectual potential. I felt I had discovered myself - I loved it.

I gave up God when I was nineteen and for about ten years was very active politically - I was radical left and feminist. When I was thirty I started wanting something spiritual again. I started doing martial arts and liked that very much. Then in 1976, when I was in Australia briefly (I had been living in London for years), I heard about some teachings by Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa Rinpoche at Chenrezig Institute, in Queensland. That was my introduction to Buddhism - twenty-five years ago last month. I did a one month intensive course with Rinpoche and a month retreat with Lama Yeshe. At that stage, I had no idea about the differences between Tibetan Buddhism and Zen, Kagyu and Gelugpa, all I knew was that these were my lamas and this was my home.

KG: What do you mean by home? How did you experience that?

RC: Even though I knew I did not understand Lama Zopa's teachings very well, I felt incredibly comfortable to be there. That was very surprising to me. I had been a radical lesbian feminist for a while and did not like even being around men. Yet here I was surrounded by men, all these hippies - and these lamas were men! It was difficult for me, but nothing made me go away. I did not want to leave. I just felt extraordinarily happy to be there. Saying 'coming home' sounds very corny, but it was actually very true. It was like I had a found what I had been looking for and I felt I really connected to Lama Yeshe straight away.

KG: How did your ordination come about?

RC: I gave up being a Catholic when I was nineteen and became completely into sex and pleasure, but never into romance - whether I was into men or women. I never wanted to have a house, I never wanted to get married and I never wanted a baby. These were not things I rejected, it was just something that never occurred to me. However, I did not quite know what the alternative was, although I was constantly looking. I used to think to myself, 'One day I'll end up on a mountain', but I never knew what I meant by that. By the time I met these lamas, I had completely got fed up with sex, fed up with drugs, fed up with alcohol and cigarettes. I had given them all up. Finally, here it was: what I had been looking for. It was very clear, not even a doubt in my mind. After my first courses, I came back to Melbourne and practised every day and helped at Tara Institute. A year later, I announced to Lama Yeshe that he was my guru. He said, 'Yes, dear, I know'. I learnt later that you ask, not announce!

Six months later I went to Kopan and became a nun. For the next ten years I worked for Wisdom Publications in England. I left in 1987. Then, during a retreat in New Zealand with Lama Zopa Rinpoche, he said, 'Go to Sydney and teach'. Since then I have been teaching. For the past seven years I have been in America. The first six years I was editor of Mandala magazine - I gave that up last year.

The job that I am doing now came out of the work at Mandala. That is as director of the Liberation Prison Project. We would get letters from prisoners wanting the magazine. I got my first letter in 1996, from a young Mexican man who was an ex-gangster and who was interested in the Dharma and wanted to practise. So, I started writing, sending some books and then visiting to give Refuge. Then his friend wrote, then another. Now there are a thousand people on the mailing list and we get one hundred letters a month. We have also started in Australia and have started a fund to support prisoners in Mongolia.

One of the most precious things we can give prisoners is books. We also visit when we can. In America, I have other monks and nuns in different states who visit and write as well. The prisoners who have been studying are now starting groups. Our main wish is to get more funding and to get a network of people to give advice about practice. We have two people working full-time and a budget of up to Aus $10,000 a month. Most of this money comes from individuals and any offerings that I have been given.

KG: In the film Chasing Buddha, your visits to the men - including some on Death Row - make very powerful viewing.

RC: Yes. Teaching the groups in prison is very strong. They are very hungry and really practice well. They do not need to be convinced that they are suffering.

KG: It also appears to bring together spirituality and social action.

RC: Absolutely, That is something very appealing to the west. There are people completely delighted by this project because it appeals to their social action side; most people cannot always appreciate the benefit of just giving something spiritual. People in prison, especially in America but I think everywhere, are seen as the scum of the earth. To take care of them is something worthwhile.

KG: In terms of Buddhism in the west generally, and during the time you have been involved, there must have been many changes. Would you make some comment on this?

RC: There is a lot of talk about 'western Buddhism' isn't there? What seems more and more clear to me is the necessity for keeping the lineages alive and pure. There is no need to hurry to 'create' our own Buddhism. We need to receive the teachings and all the practices from the actual knowledge holders, those who possess the experiences of the Dharma within their minds. Then we need to practise them until we get realisations. Until we actually have knowledge holders in this country and in the west, we cannot say that the Dharma is really here. Creating the Dharma actually comes from one mind to another. So, we just need to be patient, receive the teachings and practise and then slowly, slowly - generation to generation - it will develop in a natural and organic way.

One of the dangers is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I know when I first heard the teachings on lam rim from Lama Zopa, I did not understand where he was coming from or what he was saying. I could not find any handles or reference points; it was just impossible for me. It took me a long time to even begin to understand the Tibetan packaging of the Dharma, let alone the specific teachings. However, we cannot expect the current teachers to repackage the Dharma for us - that is our job when we have really got the Dharma deep in our hearts. But out of their kindness, so many of our lamas have done that for us. For example, Traleg Rinpoche, Lama Zopa Rinpoche and Lama Yeshe all speak English. Out of their incredible kindness they have explained the Dharma in ways that we can comprehend.

KG: Could you speak about the importance of the relationship with the guru, especially from the perspective of your own experience?

RC: First, it is clear to me that I cannot imagine being a Buddhist without having a teacher. However, I also think that guru devotion is such a hard one for our minds to understand. As one of our lamas said, that is because guru devotion is the most difficult practice, not just for westerners, but for everybody. I suppose too, there are different levels of guru devotion. However, my lamas certainly always taught it at the highest level - at the level of seeing the guru as a Buddha. This is the very heart of the practice.

It seems to me that to begin to understand what this means, and be able to practise it, we need to have some understanding of emptiness - how things do not exist out there in and of themselves. When we have a lot of attachment to our teacher, we are happy to see the guru as a Buddha but it is completely emotional; it is not stable, it is conditional. This means that as soon as they do something wrong - like not giving us the attention we crave - we start finding fault with them. This is because of our attachment. This means that to actually practice Guru Yoga in a sincere way, we have to have already gone past some level of delusion.

KG: It seems that you are pointing to something about motivation here also?

RC: Yes, when we say these prayers every day, what do we expect? These prayers are aspirations, aren't they? If you think every day, 'I want to be a Buddha, I want to be a Buddha, I want to benefit others, may all sentient beings be happy', you should not be surprised that when the opportunities come, you are going to take them!
It also seems to me that guru devotion is actually very private - it is a completely private practice. When it is coming from attachment, it can be grovelling and pathetic, it is kind of embarrassing to outsiders. It is like you are in love, but it is inappropriate. It is actually quite arrogant, it is coming from a very emotional place with a lot of expectation. Whereas, true devotion should be truly invisible.

Because we have been around Tibetans, and we have watched high lamas with other high lamas and observed the Asian way of showing respect - the bowing and so on - we have tended to ape these movements. However, they are often very empty when we do them. We have to first discover our own authenticity. We have to really understand that and then show in a behavioural way that is appropriate for our culture. How we show respect might not be the same as the Tibetan ways.

KG: What do you mean by authenticity?

RC: It means to be natural, not phoney; but that is hard to understand sometimes. All my life my behaviour was terrible - my body and speech were very uncontrolled. I always thought I had this absolute right to do what I wanted, to say what I wanted, when I wanted, with no consideration for others. Lama Yeshe was very kind to me one day, while I was his attendant. I was having a very hard time - he was really showing me my mind - I did not know whether I was Arthur or Martha, I tell you. Then, at one point, he said to me, 'There is nothing wrong with your heart, it is just your behaviour.' It was something that really gave me insight. I began to understand for the first time that there is a difference between 'me' and my behaviour, and this gave me some space to start realising that I should start to work on my behaviour.

However, during my life I can see that there was a good side to this. I was quite straightforward and open, although erring on the side of being blunt and arrogant. But, when I started looking for a spiritual path, I think I became phoney, like wearing a cloak of being peaceful, being holy. I was not being natural. I notices this and realised I needed to be authentic; to be who I was, but to make it better. We need to learn how to control our behaviour while at the same time be natural. That is being authentic.

We have this concept of being holy, but when we get enlightened we will not become clones of each other - all sweet, holy, slow-walking people. If you are skinny, or short, or fat, or loud, or peaceful, or wrathful - whatever - you will be who you are. You would become a Buddha like that. Our job is to hone our personality and make that personality more beneficial. Of course, it requires a real honesty in relation to your own mind - to be direct, but to be kind. When Buddhism is only intellectual for us; we pretend, we pretend to be holy. These Tibetan lamas are so natural. That is what I love about the Dalai Lama and Lama Yeshe - but that is what shocked me at first too. I had this concept of being a Buddhist and Lama Yeshe completely shattered that concept. He was funny and laughed a lot and spoke loudly. Look at the Dalai Lama - he walks and talks so fast! So, it is about being authentic, without being harmful. Does that make sense?

KG: It seems, from your film Chasing Buddha, that film is also a medium for showing in action.

RC: Yes, absolutely. I think for some reason that is what delights people about the film. Also, I think people have such a cliched view of what it is to be a Buddhist nun and I guess I do not fit that mould. A Tibetan friend of mine said, after seeing the film, that it is a film for hopeless cases!

KG: In terms of the projects you are involved with now, do you see yourself working with them for some time? What future plans do you have?

RC: I do not really have plans for the future. Since leaving Wisdom, I have been teaching and editing Mandala and the now I am doing the Prison Project. Things just come up that you need to do. The Prison Project was something that I could not say 'No' to. It just happened to come up in front of me, the work was there. It just grew and grew. I do not think about what I will be doing next year or the year after. It is possible that a different person may be appointed director of the Prison Project; we will just see, it will evolve.

The other area I want to be involved in - and my heart is breaking because I cannot make the time - is to edit Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa's teachings. That is what I used to do when I was at Wisdom. Especially Lama Yeshe's teachings, because there are not many books being published and there is so much material there. I am now putting some time aside to devote to editing.

I think that if I have a life plan it would be to work - to collect merit that way - then to meditate and then die. I do not have a timeline on that, because the time of death is uncertain. But that is my wish, my prayer. I certainly hope to have created enough merit to do some intensive meditation before I die.